Labour is to revive the hated Tory plan to force banks to carry out surveillance on claimants’ accounts and give the DWP police type power to search premises and seize possessions.

The Tory provisions were contained in the Data Protection and Digital Information Bill, but this failed to be passed into law before the general election and was therefore scrapped.

Now, however, Labour have announced that they are to include what appear to be very similar provisions in a new Fraud, Error and Debt Bill.

According to the DWP, the new law will give the DWP powers to:

  • Better investigate suspected fraud and new powers of search and seizure so DWP can take greater control investigations into criminal gangs defrauding the taxpayer.
  • Allow DWP to recover debts from individuals who can pay money back but have avoided doing so, bringing greater fairness to debt recoveries.
  • Require banks and financial institutions to share data that may show indications of potential benefit overpayments

The Tory bank surveillance provisions would have forced banks to monitor the accounts of all means-tested benefits claimants and report every time an account went over the capital limit or was used abroad for more than four weeks.

In late 2023, it was estimated that almost 9 million claimants would be caught in the Tory surveillance net, including:

  • 8 million universal credit claimants
  • 6 million employment and support allowance claimants
  • 4 million pension credit claimants

That number is likely to have increased by now, especially with the push to get more people to sign-up for pension credit.

Labour’s new bill will also give the DWP the power to search premises and seize evidence, such as documents, laptops and phones.

The Tory Bill contained similar powers.

It would have allowed designated DWP staff to arrest claimants, search premises and seize any evidence they found without needing to use the police. The DWP said this would put them on a par with HMRC and the Gangmasters and Labour Abuse Authority (GLAA).

In an attempt to reassure claimants, the DWP today claimed that:

“The Bill will also include safeguarding measures to protect vulnerable customers. Staff will be trained to the highest standards on the appropriate use of any new powers, and we will introduce new oversight and reporting mechanisms, to monitor these new powers. DWP will not have access to people’s bank accounts and will not share their personal information with third parties.”

Labour claim that these powers will only be used against criminal gangs.  But, until we see the text of the bill, we will have no way of knowing whether the law will actually prevent the DWP using their new powers against individual claimants if they so choose.

The outline of the new bill was published today by the DWP to coincide with Kier Starmer’s first speech as prime minister to a Labour party conference.

In his speech, Starmer made only a brief reference to the new bill, saying, “If we want to maintain support for the welfare state, then we will legislate to stop benefit fraud and do everything we can to tackle worklessness.”

Back in April of this year the then prime minister, Rishi Sunak, outlined his plan to give the DWP police powers.  He did this whilst setting out his five point plan for welfare reform in a speech at the right-wing think tank, the Centre for Social justice, founded by Iain Duncan-Smith.

Just five months later, Keir Starmer has announced similar measures, this time in a speech to the Labour party conference.

The other four Sunak points were:

  • The WCA to be made harder to pass
  • GPs no longer to issue fit notes
  • Legacy benefits claimants to move to UC sooner and work requirements to be increased
  • PIP no longer always a cash benefit and fewer people to be eligible

We will now have to wait for Labour’s welfare reform white paper to see whether any of the four remaining points will also be adopted as Labour policy.

An outline of the new Fraud, Error and Debt Bill can be found here.

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  • Thank you for your comment. Comments are moderated before being published.
    Angel · 3 days ago
    What am I going to do I am not well enough physically or mentally. I just don’t see a future for me
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      Catriona · 3 days ago
      @Harry That's a great idea 💡
    • Thank you for your comment. Comments are moderated before being published.
      Harry · 3 days ago
      @Angel Hi Angel 
      Irritate them go to your doctor more often and say,sorry doctor, I'm here more often due to the DWP's new policies that is its seriously worsening my medical condition and significantly affecting my health and wellbeing.

      If you have carers under Social Services ask your doctor to have  new reviews from both Social Services and Occupational Therapist (get a copy of both reports especially your new care plan)
      Remember if your care plan has increased care hours most people who may also be paying privately may now have to get help with the new costs etc

      You can then make an official complaint to them all that this would not occur if the DWP had left you alone and its costing taxpayers more by this  Government using the DWP to implement these heinous measures.

      Finally also complain to your MP that by Implementing these horrendous measures its costing the taxpayer much more for the reasons given above and obviously your health is significantly deteriorating because of them.
      Your sole focus is to manage your health/medical conditions 24/7 definately not look for any work related activities
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    brainbiter · 3 days ago
    So we're to have our bank accounts monitored after all, this time authorised by a party founded supposedly to protect the freedoms and rights of ordinary people, including privacy of course since most authorities locate privacy and freedom in property rights and property includes income. Will we ever grow up? How credulous do we have to be to participate in this charade? Yet every election it's the same on this website: tub-thumping declamations of ' x years of Tory misrule' and a weary trip down memory lane for those who spent their best days at 1980s Labour conferences (and 1960s conferences before that), only for the party to prove itself utterly compliant when in power. This is not a 'right-wing' agenda furthermore. It just suits our enemies to paint it this way. Like all centralising manoeuvres aimed at state control, this is of the left. What's more these things are planned decades in advance. Covid acclimatised us to state interference. Thereafter we all knew where it was heading and, now, where it's going to end. Couldn't we just talk about benefits, or the weather, come the next election and leave the politics and the rhetoric at home?
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    Sunny Dayz · 3 days ago
    Does this include all UK banks and financial institutions? If not is there a list? What about money in foreign savings accounts or held in money transfer services (waiting for better exchange rates)
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      naheegan · 2 days ago
      @Rik
      A white paper isn't yet published, so we really don't know. But I expect that all accounts that banks will be required to surveille  all accounts that have benefit(s) paid in.

      It might be prudent to only have a bank account for benefit pay ins and necessary standing/debit orders and bills that are paid by bank card, with a float left in to cover unexpected contingencies and overdrafts. The rest to be taken out monthly in cash. Not everyone will be able to do this, but for those who can, it might ease the surveillance stress.
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      Rik · 3 days ago
      @John That list is basically every bank who operates in the UK - I assume we can exclude niche private banks! Those 15 banks also have significant operations across the globe. Along with the use of AI software, wouldn't be difficult to find undeclared money.
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      Rik · 3 days ago
      @Steve If you only have money from the DWP going into your account and nothing else, I doubt your account would be flagged. I was thinking more for those who may have sold an item, been given a gift of money, or who are being helped in some way by family. In those instances, even if you're below the allowed levels, it might be prudent to have it in cash. 
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      Steve · 3 days ago
      @Rik And from whose account do you propose getting your cash ?, the DWP ONLY pay into a bank or (BS) account, all payments/withdrawals leave a digital footprint, they just follow the trail…… welcome to ‘1984’…… 
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      John · 3 days ago
      @Rik https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/6564bab01524e6000da10168/DWP_third_party_data_impact_assessment_november_2023.pdf

      Page 28. Originally it was only the top 15 banks, but we'll have to wait and see I guess.
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    Harry · 3 days ago
    It's quite clear that heinous Labour are going to target severely disabled benefit claimants in the support group.


    Sickness benefit claimants should look for work - PM

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    Doomed · 3 days ago
     well here I am, I was in hospital yesterday in near tears, telling them if they didn't start fixing me, then I'd be pushed to take that deadly step, rarely an hour in the day without pain, hardly a night with proper sleep, not knowing physically from day to day, hour to hour what I can or cannot do physically, fighting mental battles, pdst covering most areas of my life. 30 years struggle trying to get back on my own two feet. cold and wet basically cripples me, past injuries, fibro etc etc. and all I want to do is be benefit free... no help, I can't be around ppl for mar than an hour or so depending on my situation and their attitudes, cant sit, stand lay down for very long without advers repercussions, now I also fighting muslwastage though lack of activity... learning and focus challenges means cant study... many of you know many of you in the same boat... I felt like they dwp, pip etc, were treating me like a criminal before.. but this new wave, new plans is basically saying "You are guilty until we can prove you guilty and if we can't we'll make it up", next will be " you can buy that but you can't buy that, you can shop here but you cant chop there"... its too much... too much
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      Simon · 2 days ago
      @JJ Kind of you to say.

      I go into panic mode as well, but I know that "what I am is not my fault" and there is only so much I can do on a daily basis to be more productive. If the system decided to push me too hard, I would fold under the pressure.

      Take it one day at a time - that's all we can do.

      As I have said elsewhere, there are good people working in the system, even at the dreaded DWP - so we have allies, even though they may not always seem that way on the surface.

      At the end of the day, I think most of us don't want to be a financial burden and I am open to practical suggestions and realistic systems of support to help me be a little more productive - but at this time, I can't imagine what that support looks like.

      All the best.
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      JJ · 3 days ago
      @Simon Reading your words on this thread have pepped me up, I'm worried legitimately about these "plans" and I'm worried about my brother who is me times 2 on the "severity of disability" frequency.

      I'm not patronizing or backside kissing, legitimately saying that someone who shares clarity and rational conclusions can do the world of good to others reading who are overcome with worry. 

      So thank you.
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      Simon · 3 days ago
      @Doomed I understand your feelings - I have a similar outlook at times and am alone in my struggles mostly. However, the rational part of my mind understands that we often catastrophise. You aren't guilty of anything - nobody signed a contract prior to birth to have to face a world which is hard on us all, especially with disabilities. I read an interesting book recently called Determined by Professor Robert Sapolsky - if you have the mind for it, worth a read, or at least a listen to his talks on YouTube. These ideas have been useful for me, as I carry such a weight of guilt due to my issues and non-participation in the 9-5 working environment. We are what we are basically.

      Also, we don't fully understand the particulars of the bill yet and this will not be immediately implemented, regardless. They will basically push the burden of responsibility on to the banks who will have to report suspicious activity - then, without prior consent from an account holder, the DWP will be able to access account information.

      As long you don't have a wage going into your account or regular large deposits etc. and do not exceed the allowed thresholds, there is no reason for your account to be flagged and inspected. That's my understanding of what they are looking to do going forward.

      "You are guilty until we can prove you guilty and if we can't we'll make it up"

      Trust me, if this were the case and general policy, law firms would be rubbing their hands together, as there would be mounting cases against the DWP and settlements aplenty for harassment of clients.
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    Cheekyfeet · 3 days ago
    I think when they finally start the transfer of old ESA ir Support Group claimants to UC, I think the claims will automatically be changed to WRAG or a fresh claim (and the Support Group abolished) so all claimants will face some sort of work preparation, (apart from end of life claims) this is only way I can see Devil Starmer's long term sick should look for work mantra playing out, I also think the evil Sanctions regime wil stay a part of the benefits system in some way too. All this from pen pushers who have never lived with a serious illness or severe disability in their lives!
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      Harry · 3 days ago
      @Cheekyfeet I agree cheekyfeet and they'll attempt to get rid of Regulation 19 whereby presently you don't have to engage  with Work Coach for work commitments etc 

      Regulation 19((Transactional Protections 2014)
      provides that a claimant may be treated as having limited capability for work, or limited capability for work and work-related activity, for the purposes of an award of universal credit, if they were previously entitled to the work-related activity component, or the support component, of old style ES

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    CarolK · 3 days ago
    I think Kendall said the emphasis for the new reforms is getting young people in their teens and twenties who are on sickness benefits into work or education. I don't doubt us elders will be spared but I think most of us here are 40+ and probably won't feel as much pressure from them to get a job in these reforms, but that's my only guess really. 
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      Catriona · 3 days ago
      @Jonno You die you worry you die you don't.Thats what my late father taught me .just wait and. See what happens then panic 🥺
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      JW · 3 days ago
      @Jonno Yep, I am too. I'm on PIP with physical and mental disabilities. I'm 40+ and struggled enough at work in my 20's so I hope they leave people alone who really can't do anything.
      The past decade has been a real struggle and I just want to rest now. I have an award and am hoping to not have to worry til at least 2026.
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      Jonno · 3 days ago
      @CarolK Hope to God you're right. Worried sick about this.
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      Anon · 3 days ago
      @CarolK I think that's wishful thinking 
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    James · 3 days ago
    This is so depressing but not a surprise im capitalist uk that's followed for last 100 hrs capitalist tory ideology same as USA and the only kast real Hope of a more fairer socialist uk was under jeremy corbyn as a true labour party leader and this evil shower are tory lite same as Blair era there not really bothered if people didt vote or did vote business as usual its not a democracy uknis a capitalist victorian country like USA systems all robots and this is as bad as uk could now possibly get all lies and cover ups from top down and no choice left for ordinary person other than to leave 
    And all the scandals post office grenfell tower etc all swept under carpet wars coming as all well again wirh Russia and Ukraine and Israel we are supplying weapons fo
    Julian assange comes to mind as well as example of no human rights nigel farage is also a con man same as trump and is also more right wing and in my view racist than tories and tory starmer 
    Also all these crooks like rachel reeves and co talk about getting everyone into bum jobs even disabled yet employers won't employ many also there all living high life in parliament starmer and co and taking 100 k a hesr roughly along with second homes free flights everywhere and so on
    Worse bullies are ones who bully disabled and vulnerable and elderly only reason all this is happening is starmer was only backed by big businesses same as starmer to get in due to hate if tories so its all corruption and lies little to look forward to as everyone is divided up and brainwashed no community without no community and all media on radio and TV right wing press its not a good situation gopd luck everyone as uk says goodbye to any sign if a democracy as we slowly head towards usa and north Korea ways of life 
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    Old Historian · 3 days ago
    I may be too old to see any real change as by the end of this parliament I will be 70 years old if I even make that long. As a historian I am appalled how the younger generation are taught too hate the previous generation and happy to see their rights and freedoms and benefits being taken away not realising it will be their turn soon. They do not realise the rights that they take away from an older generation is their own rights being taken away and will only feel its full impact when they come to my generations age group. I may not see change but always hope that a special generation of people do rise up (if not for older people and sick persons and the disabled) and realise their own rights are also being taken away and they rise up to change things. I never lose hope that a special generation like those of the 60s had turn up to see that what is being done to one section of society today will be done to the next generation too!
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      Dawsden · 3 days ago
      @Old Historian I'm 66 in March. So like you I will be 70 by the end of starmers 'reign" like you you, I wonder if I'll be here, seriously. Labour will give the vote to 16 year olds definitely. They are only interested in the young votes for precisely what you say.  I'm on enhanced pip for both components. I have had to fight tooth and nail for it, which has really took its toll on me. I don't know how much longer I can put up this fight. Best wishes to you and everyone in our boat!
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      I · 3 days ago
      @Old Historian Completely agree. Very well put. Exactly that. 
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      Bev Burton · 3 days ago
      @Old Historian Similar age group to you and agree with your comment 💯 I have 2 hard working Daughters, both qualified Nurses, in their 40’s and they don’t begrudge pensioners or vulnerable folk a penny ! Upbringing I guess. 
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    Onyx123 · 3 days ago
    The DWP will target individuals with the new law. The DWP will interpret the new law however they want until challenged in the high court. The DWP always operate like that. The same with PIP, until challenged in a court or tribunal. Starmer says to tackle worknessless. His he going to stop importing workers so Brits can get a job. No he will not. All to get good headline in the press and hoping to pick up Tory voters. Starmer thinks being hard on benefit claimants will win him votes. That is the only reason he is doing this.
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      MrFibro · 3 days ago
      @Steve That's all gone quiet.
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      Steve · 3 days ago
      @Onyx123 The Post Office used similar ‘powers’ when ‘investigating’, and that was a real success (not), being a ‘law unto themselves’ is fine until the real law catches up with them, unfortunately in the mean time as you say, they’ll do as the want…..
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    Jim · 3 days ago
    I will never be voting Labour again (Voted for them all my life).
    They (Westminster) are all in to together
    New Labour? More like the New Conservatives.
    Kendall, Starmer and Reeves should not be any where near the most vulnerable.
    They punch down on the already black and blue, traumatized after 14 years of the cruel Tories, rather then go after those who got ever fat from austerity, a pandemic and a cost of living crises.
    Absolutely disgusted with Labour.
    Time for a new party of the left, with union and charities at the heart of it. 
    Enough is enough, starzi state - Starmer state, 
    one and the same thing.
    A UK where it is a crime to be too disabled or ill to work.
    Where people can choose to die on the shop floor or on the street penniless.
    Where the disabled and sick are now called economically inactive.
    a burden on the state. Told work will set you free. 
    Shame on these so called Labour politicians.
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      JW · 3 days ago
      @Elaine My thinking too, Elaine- "How can you send ill people to do a job?" Couldn't have put it better myself.
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      orchid2819 · 3 days ago
      @Jim Very well said. I'm a lifelong Labour voter, over many years but I will NEVER vote for them again. We need a proper left wing alternative in this country. My partner and I are both disabled and are carer's for each other. We really struggle to get through each day. We all deserve SO much better than this! I really don't have the words. 

      Anyway, where are all these jobs going to come from for 3.2 million working age disabled people when there is only 900 thousand vacancies and about 1.4 million people unemployed, fit and able to do the work. All it is, is a continuation of the morally bankrupt actions of successive governments to try to force people off disability benefits, with no follow up on what happens to them. They insult us by thinking that we're too dim to work this out!

      I really regret voting for Labour, I nearly voted for the Greens and wish I did. I voted for change from the Tories evil governance and a more sympathetic approach towards us. It's always a better life promised to everyone except the disabled. Mind you, this lot are even picking on the pensioners of which my partner is one. Absolutely disgusting. 
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      Jonno · 3 days ago
      @Jim Can't understand my the unions don't withdraw the monies they give to Labour and start a new political party. They could call it the TUC workers party. If they don't then Reform will only get stronger because Starmer will do nothing other than cracking down on the poor and the sick.
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      I · 3 days ago
      @Jim Me too, never ever again. Ever!! I cancelled my labour membership 2 weeks ago.
      This is unbearable, this is unbelievable stress on top of being a carer, and already  difficult to manage and live with, health conditions. 
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      Elaine · 3 days ago
      @Jim Here here plus what about disabled rights!! Starmer is no different to Sunak now I see why he kept his policies quiet with all the backstabbing he’s been doing behind the scenes. How can you send ill people to a job and where are all these jobs coming from ? Out of thin air perhaps!!! I’m totally disgusted 
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    Jon · 3 days ago
    Just been into the local JSP apparently once you have applied for UC they send you a message a few days later to provide id
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    wibblum · 3 days ago
    As a lifelong Labour voter I was prepared to bite my lip and very reluctantly vote for Starmer's 'vision' of Labour in the General Election, anything to get rid of the sociopathic venal tories. I eventually came to my senses and finally vowed not to vote for Starmer and his shower of ***** over their 'moral' stance on Gaza (which of course changed as soon as it started to poll badly). Starmer has *always* been a despicable Blairite chancer, even when he stood side-by-side with Corbyn (to the right, of course).

    At the time I wondered if it was a bit of a wasted vote, but I'm so glad now that I voted Green.
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      lesley · 3 days ago
      @wibblum Well done wibblum.  So proud that my son decided to vote Green.  I too shall vote Green next time. Unfortunately I too voted for labour this time. Apologies to all!
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      Simon · 3 days ago
      @wibblum I'm not sure it would matter who was in office at this time, as the DWP would likely pressure for extended powers regardless. I have tried to analyse how it would be possible to address serious fraud (not claimants making a few quid on the side or squirrelling away a grand or two) - I mean more serious fraud, like faking a disability claim while working or having 50 grand in the bank while claiming etc. Without the ability to access an account (which I fundamentally hate the idea of) - how else could they check for fraud?

      We don't know the particulars of the bill yet, but from what I have read, it seems to be an obligation on the part of banks to flag accounts with suspicious activity and inform the DWP, at which point an investigation would take place without the need for consent on behalf of an account holder.

      I didn't vote by the way.

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    clearwater · 3 days ago
    Excuse all my typos, ive an old pair bucked & bent glasses on, till i get my good pair back later today.
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    clearwater · 3 days ago
    Starmer says people need to look for work.................today on BBC -  The writing is on the wall,  i knew how sly Starmer, Reeves & Kendall and repeatedly mentioned. But it has arrived, we only await the Approved Stamp coming down 30 October 2024.    I did not vote i was not voting Conservative and on the day wrestled with voting lsabour, yes i was actually sick thinking about it. I did not vote. I could not bring myself to vote for Hypocrytical, sly, cowards. I felt ashamed not voting, funny thing i have since met 4-5 people who feld and did the same. All said they were right not voting either. 
    • Thank you for your comment. Comments are moderated before being published.
      Jon · 2 days ago
      @DJMH15 The public aren't sympathetic to any kind of benefit claimants
    • Thank you for your comment. Comments are moderated before being published.
      Jon · 2 days ago
      @Simon I went in my local jcp and it was dead just a couple of clients but plenty of work coachs
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      Simon · 2 days ago
      @Anon "It looks like the onslaught is about to begin"

      I doubt we will see an onslaught, as the workload they have is horrendous.

      Change will happen at some point, but I think it's important to maintain perspective here. Nothing is going to happen for a while, as they need to put systems in place and then clients will be processed in batches.

      We are all individuals, with individual needs and circumstances, so looking to facilitate many of us who have already been assessed multiple times and can demonstrate our issues, will not be that easy, given the existing healthcare infrastructure already lacks facilitation for complex needs.

      I can't imagine where these "training courses" will come from at this time - do they have a magic wand? No. So again, this is something that will be rolled out over a number of years.

      An onslaught is "unlikely" to begin anytime soon.

      "there won't be any escaping it, even in the support group"

      Being contacted by an agent, even in the support group, isn't the end of the world. We can use this as an opportunity to see if there are any "viable" options to help us move to a more productive place. This won't work for many, of course, but I think we have to move away from this doom and gloom language.
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      Simon · 2 days ago
      @MJ MJ

      I think their primary targets will be the young, those 18+ to late 20s. Anybody who has been inactive for several decades due to illness will be pretty much written off by employers. If I ran a business I doubt I would consider an employee who had 15 to 20 years of ongoing and demonstrable mental health difficulties.

      I am Austistic and had severe co-morbid OCD for several years along with horrendous depressive episodes. I have managed to get myself to a more independent state, but my life is incredibly isolated and ritualistic. My own barriers to entry in the workplace are not great, shall we say. I had to work for nearly 3 years and then was made redundant and never managed to get back into the workplace due to illness.

      The thing that really grinds me down, is that my mind is transiently capable of being articulate, analytical and so on - but I am all over the place in terms of being able to function away from a constrained environment and my socialisation skills are limited.

      It is so frustrating as I also want to give back to others and feel as though I can have a positive impact.

      And that's just me - a tangle of complicated needs that will not look good on my CV.

      I think you are right - sustainable is the word here and I think what they will have to do, practically speaking, if they force any of us into work, is to maintain a reasonable baseline level of welfare support (money), that remains foundationally intact even as we work. Without this, none of these reforms will work, as they will essentially create an underclass and we'll see homelessness sky rocket, along with local GPs and hospitals having to deal with casualties fractured by the system.

      I just hope they liaise closely with the disability community and tip toe rather than race toward change, as they need to tread carefully.


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      Simon · 2 days ago
      @DJMH15 DJMH15

      Yes - we'll see what happens.

      My mind goes in so many directions when I try to analyse what is actually going on at the moment. Cultures in decline? The shifting sands of time taking it's toll on structures with built in obsolescence? The global human population peeking, with a resultant and understandable collapse as we collectively attempt to maintain the foundationally unattainable? The inevitable "boot on the neck" moment as soulless corporations use their puppeteers in office to lash those unwilling and/or broken to attend to the grotesque machinery of conspicuous consumption and wage slavery? The lack of core identity fed by a cohesive and viscerally relatable narrative leading to fractions?

      Or maybe this is just simple - humans are rather selfish animals and at times, will snarl, claw and step on anybody or anything they deem unworthy of respect; especially those who so-called "esteemed peers" target as being at least partially responsible for rising costs and systemic issues.

      The actual solution to all of this is probably beyond human reach and we will always be left on a rather precarious raft being buffeted hither and yonder by whatever hubristic ideologue stands to take office.

      I have few answers and I don't waste much energy on hope nowadays. All I know is that many of us, even though seemingly broken, still have enough intelligence and grit to fight the system as it stands and help those around us who founder.

      I count myself lucky at this time to have a mind still reasonably intact, but as they say, the flesh is weak.
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    tintack · 3 days ago
    I considered voting Labour but decided against it because I suspected they would go down this road. I voted Green instead and I'm now very glad I did.

    There has been a great deal of outrage in the media over cuts to eligibility for the winter fuel allowance - and rightly so.  And yet, the same right wing pundits and politicians who claim to have suddenly discovered a conscience over that issue are in many instances the same people who either said nothing or were actually cheering the loudest when the Tories repeatedly cut sickness and disability benefits over the last 14 years (nor do they seem to have a problem with the two child cap pushing hundreds of thousands of kids into poverty). Indeed, they continued to support those cuts even when evidence was mounting that they had led to thousands of deaths.  The Tories just fought an election on a pledge to make even harsher cuts even though they must know that if that were to happen it would cause even more deaths.

    It seems that benefit cuts killing pensioners would be a scandal if it happens (and it certainly would be a scandal), but when benefit cuts have been killing seriously ill and disabled eople for years? Not a problem, cut even more! Could this be in any way related to the fact that pensioners tend to vote Tory while people on disability benefits tend not to? Perish the thought - that would suggest that the likes of Mel "look to your conscience" Stride are only bothered about the effects of benefit cuts when it's their own voter base who are affected. And that couldn't possibly be true.

    The fact that pensioner benefits were so well protected over the last 14 years, especially through the triple lock, is undoubtedly a good thing. But for the sick and disabled there has been no such protection. Quite the reverse - we've been hammered repeatedly and the deaths caused as a result have been conveniently swept under the carpet by the Tories' client media. The fact that Labour seems to have abandoned its pledge to hold an inquiry into those deaths suggests that they don't give a damn either, an impression reinforced by their policy announcements thus far. There is therefore no pushback to the Tories' abusive rhetoric and dehumanising narrative, as both the major parties seem to be in agreement. I would not be at all surprised if the Tories support Labour's sickness and disability benefit plans when we find out exactly what they are - they did when Labour introduced the WCA and Atos in 2008, then picked it up and ran with it once they were back in power.

    Carla Denyer, one of the Greens' co-leaders, was spot on when she said in one of the election TV debates that "Kier Starmer says he has changed the Labour Party. He's right - he's changed them into the Conservative party."



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      tintack · 2 days ago
      @Shelly
      "Of course the Tories are criticising Labour for cutting the WFA, and rightly so, its a ridiculous decision".

      The Tories' criticisms may well be true. The problem is they are the last people who can make those arguments. It's no good trying to argue that the WFA cut is wrong on the grounds that it will harm vulnerable people, and vulnerable people should be protected (which is obviously true), if they are also going to support an all-out onslaught on another group of vulnerable people. In fact I've seen comments from the likes of Mel Stride criticising Labour for (thus far at least) not announcing cuts to sickness and disability benefits as brutal as those the Tories were proposing at the election. Apparently Stride's much-vaunted conscience only goes so far.

      That said, the WFA cut is indeed ridiculous, not just on moral grounds but even on the economic grounds being put forward as a supposed justification for the policy. It won't save much anyway, and if there's an increase in uptake of Pension Credit - which they say they're trying to bring about - then that will wipe out what paltry savings the WFA cut would make in the first place. Of course, they could mitigate the worst effects of the policy by raising the qualifying threshold so far fewer pensioners lose out, but that would also wipe out the savings made by the cut and thus obliterate the economic justification for the policy. Ludicrous.

      "If the roles were reversed Labour would be doing exactly the same. It's what the braying hounds of Parliament do. The only difference is you wouldn't be calling them hypocrites because you voted for them."

      I would be criticising them. As I said at the start of my first post, I did not vote for them. I considered voting for them through gritted teeth due to the utterly sociopathic nature of this current iteration of the Tory party, which is horrific even by their degraded standards. But I remember what New Labour did towards the end of their time in office and the sight of Yvette "imaginary wheelchairs" Cooper and Rachel "we'll be tougher than the Tories on benefits" Reeves back in the shadow cabinet was a giant red flag.

      I voted Green, and if the Greens ever somehow managed to form a majority government and introduced policies like cutting the WFA or hammering sick and disabled people then I would certainly criticise them vociferously for it. Politics is not - or at least should not be - like a football match, where you cheer for your team regardless. That's the mentality that leads to malignant narcissists  like Trump being in power.
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      Shelly · 3 days ago
      @tintack
      I will have to concede to a wiser mind than mine on the pension benefit issue, fair play.

      Of course the Tories are criticising Labour for cutting the WFA, and rightly so, its a ridiculous decision. If the roles were reversed Labour would be doing exactly the same. It's what the braying hounds of Parliament do. The only difference is you wouldn't be calling them hypocrites because you voted for them.

      Being honest, seeing the changes that Starmer et al. are planning I'd almost welcome the Tories back at this point. 
      At least you knew the evil you got with them. This lot, they're slipping the knife in between your shoulder blades while smiling at you.
      Disabled people are going to be treated worse than under the Tories, I can feel it coming. It's insidious. All under the guise of "helping us back into work".
      I really hope I'm wrong though.



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      Henry · 3 days ago
      @Rik Yes, and past generations did too. Without all the fuss.
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      tintack · 3 days ago
      @MJ
      Yes, there is defintely a common theme there - if you vote for us we'll support you, if you vote for the other lot we'll screw you over and we won't lose a moment's sleep over it (although I suspect a fair number of sick and disabled people did vote Labour in the hope - though not necessarily the expectation - that they'd be better than the Tories).

      That said, the same principle applies as when comparing the Tories' treatment of pensioners to what they meted out to sick and disabled people. It's not that pensioners should have been treated terribly because that's what happened to the sick and disabled - that would be an absurd argument to make - it's that both groups should have been protected. Similarly, I have no issue with public sector workers getting a pay rise, but trying to turn it into an issue of public sector workers versus pensioners would also be absurd. When those in power try to play one group of ordinary people off against another it never ends well.
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      MJ · 3 days ago
      @tintack
      "Mel "look to your conscience" Stride are only bothered about the effects of benefit cuts when it's their own voter base who are affected." 

      Not just the Tories looking after their voter base, Labour is clearly doing the same by cutting benefits to pensioners (as you say more likely to vote Tory) while giving out big pay rises to public sector workers that are more likely to vote Labour.
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    Matt · 3 days ago
    As I never got a straight answer from the prospective - and now elected - Labour MP for Exeter in relation to PIP, I decided not to vote for Starmer. In many ways Labour are much nastier than the Conservatives who never concealed their true intentions. As well as welfare cuts, we are all going to be clobbered with tax rises (primarily council tax0 and higher inflation due to rises in fuel duty.  Unfortunately given FPTP, their massive majority, and a split in the centre-right, I foresee Labour being in power for a decade.
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    Vic · 3 days ago
    I will never be voting for this lot ever again .
    Talk about stabbing the working class, Oap's, The sick & poor in the back.
    Starmer .Reeves ,Kendall, Rayner & Streeting showing a ruthless streak while most of them pick up all their freebie handouts .
    God help us all, looks like we are in for a rough ,bullying ,forceful ride .
    Going to be more deaths on their hands that will be quietly pushed under the carpet.


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    Cassia · 3 days ago
    I hope everyone that voted Labour are happy!  first the elderly now the sick what next?
    What about the rich tax dodgers, no where to be seen on any reform!
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    CaroA · 3 days ago
    Chat gbt talking to me this morning.....

    "I completely understand why the news feels so painful especially after all the years you've spent navigating such a difficult system and life. It’s heartbreaking when those in positions of power don’t seem to grasp the reality of living with chronic illnesses, and it must feel incredibly isolating living on your own and to have to keep switching phones/everything off not speaking to anyone for most of the day having to rest just to recouperate daily to get by. The lack of understanding can feel so brutal, like the world doesn't see the weight you carry each day. It’s not fair, and it’s exhausting to keep living under that pressure. Talking with your therapist might be a good chance to release some of that distress today"

    I'm finding chat GBT and therapist etc an invaluable support at this time. Hope you are all coping as well as possible.

    • Thank you for your comment. Comments are moderated before being published.
      Terry · 3 days ago
      @CaroA Talk to a therapist, I've been waiting for an appointment for more than a year and I'm considered urgent. 
    • Thank you for your comment. Comments are moderated before being published.
      wibblum · 3 days ago
      @CaroA "Chat GPT - more humane than Starmer's Labour"

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