Labour were forced to abandon the PIP four point rule in the final hour of today’s debate, in order to save the Universal Credit and Personal Independence Payment Bill.

In the end, the bill passed its second reading with a majority of 75, with 335 voting in favour and 260 against.  49 Labour MPs rebelled and voted against the bill.  You can see a full list of the votes here

This means that the 4-point PIP rule is effectively dead after Labour made its biggest concession yet. 

Little more than an hour before today’s debate ended and voting began, Timms told the House: 

"I can announce that we are going to remove the clause five from the bill at committee, that we will move straight to the wider review, sometimes referred to as the Timms review, and only make changes to Pip eligibility, activities and descriptors following that review."

Clause 5 is the 4-point rule.

It will no longer appear in the bill when amendments are made next week.

This means that the Universal Credit and Personal Independence Payment Bill no longer has anything to do with Personal Independence Payment.

The main purpose of the bill is now to take money from future recipients of the UC health element, though current claimants will not be affected, and to introduce the severe conditions criteria.

The cut to the UC health element, in itself, should have been enough for MPs to vote the bill down, but it was an issue that received much less attention.

The Timms review will now decide the future of PIP.  And if, as Labour have promised, the review is genuinely coproduced with disabled people there is very little chance of the 4-point rule ever happening. 

There is undoubtedly still danger ahead, however.  Timms was asked twice if the changes to PIP made by the review would be put into primary or secondary legislation, Timms said that would depend on the result of the review.

But, if the government chooses to put any changes in secondary legislation, MPs would not be able to amend them and would not be given a vote on them, unless via arcane parliamentary procedure.  This may be a battleground for the third reading next week.

Nonetheless, as things stand, an enormous amount of distress has been caused to millions of disabled claimants, only to end up with a bill that has entirely abandoned its primary aim.

For Timms, Kendall and Reeves, however brave a face they put on it, today has been an enormous humiliation.  For campaigners, facing a government with a massive majority and an extraordinary degree of arrogance, it has been a remarkable – though by no means total - victory.

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  • Thank you for your comment. Comments are moderated before being published.
    · 12 hours ago
    I do feel after looking into this more and more today that those of us that are being managed migrated across from ESA to UC with the shock announced that because of your historic class 1 contributions that we really do NEED to be vigilant as they have already done  a number on us calling it Transitional Protection that we ALL know will erode!

    I do NOT think we should have been migrated across until 2028, but this Government accelerated ahead at full speed for us ALL to be migrated across before Christmas this year!

    This is yet another reason WHY we NEED to keep our eyes wide open with the up and coming proposals to ESA and UC!

    As all eyes were and have been focusing on PIP I think we need to really look for the finer details or should I say the lack of them with this Shambolic Government! As all of these proposals move forward!




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    · 12 hours ago
    Thank you for such a clearly written explanation.  It's much needed! I am going to forward it to my MP who voted for the bill because I dont think even the MPs know in its entirety what they voted on.  Just like Brexit.  I had not realised half of this happened yesterday.  I am so angry that the majority of Labour MPs voted for this shambolic, disgraceful bill that is now only focused on UC and has no credibility as a bill.  It sounds like they ran out of steam to seriously deliberate the UC part of the bill.  It seems that MPs made a political vote to support their own party rather than an ethical and honorable vote.

    My questions are:

    1 - for those aged under 22, will the initial proposed change to make them eligible for disability payments now be stopped?  I query this because I thought the under 22 rule was not in the range of consultation and it had been said this rule would go through regardless?  I havent seen anything about this.

    2 - they have said they want to introduce the severe conditions criteria.  Is this specifically linked to UC LCWRA claimants, or is this a separate part of UC?  
  • Thank you for your comment. Comments are moderated before being published.
    · 13 hours ago

    All my scores have been under 4 but will await further updates before believing anything.
    I’m so weary and stressed.  Nobody seems to know about pensioners on PIP.  I had my PIP removed a week before I reached retirement age (call me cynical but I reckon they did it so I wouldn’t get ongoing award).  Did MR still same. Decided to go to appeal and eventually DWP backed down just before hearing.  Gave me only two years award until my advocate wrote and said should be ongoing. Then got letter saying review in 2021 - this was in 2024. Phoned them wouldn’t send new letter until I got really upset and said I needed the letter to access other things. The system is not fit for purpose.
  • Thank you for your comment. Comments are moderated before being published.
    · 14 hours ago
    Complete farse it should have been scrapped entirely. All that stress and fear just as the Tories inflicted.
    It was a money saving measure and nothing else and now will the hopeless chancellor see her dream job down the toilet and get rid of Starmer as well.

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    · 16 hours ago
    I think they will now try to after backing down over the 4 point rule, NOW try to recoup that loss from UC 



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      · 13 hours ago
      @D2 The problem they've got now is that if they try to do anything with UC which would plunge a large number of people into poverty there will be another big campaign of pressure on Labour MPs and almost certainly another major rebellion. Labour MPs now know they have the numbers to defeat the government and force concessions - and the government knows it too.
  • Thank you for your comment. Comments are moderated before being published.
    · 17 hours ago
    My Brain has turned to mush and am terrified about excisting PIP claimants??? Are we still protected from future " Spin the Bottle" changes???¿
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      · 12 hours ago
      @Lianne I don't know. There is nothing being said about whether existing claimants will still be protected, and assessed under existing/old rules, after new criteria are legislated on next Autumn. Or are existing claimants now in a worse situation than before the last minute climb down on clause 5?
  • Thank you for your comment. Comments are moderated before being published.
    · 18 hours ago
    Nothing has been said about pensioners. I'm on an "ongoing" PIP award, due to be reviewed in 2027. 
    Does anyone know? Thanks
    • Thank you for your comment. Comments are moderated before being published.
      · 11 hours ago
      @Hilde I don't know why some people are anti pensioner on here..its unpleasant
    • Thank you for your comment. Comments are moderated before being published.
      · 13 hours ago
      @Hilde Hilde, your welcome. 
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      · 14 hours ago
      @Gaddy Gaddy, thank you for your reply. I appreciate it. It's a nightmare for everyone involved.
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      · 17 hours ago
      @Hilde I posted on the main forum a couple of days ago about a response I received from Stephen Timms. Basically he is saying that pensioners are not routinely assessed and therefore will be unaffected. He used the word 'protected' when referring to people reaching pension age by the time the reforms come into force. He didn't answer my specific questions one of which was will pensioners be subject to the 4 point rule- as of Friday the answer to that would have been no due to U turn no 1(as an existing claiment) We are now going to have to wait for what they come up with next but as someone who will become a state pensioner in 6 months I am more concerned for those of working age. 
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    · 18 hours ago
    Will this be again, the leveling down = transitional TEMPORARY protection...  just to shut us up.   And like with the ESA/UC move, no one will fight over us,  one, by one losing the Dissability Premiums....
  • Thank you for your comment. Comments are moderated before being published.
    · 18 hours ago
    Are the pip questions, descriptors and points going to change? I fear that a new pip form will be created with the focus on excluding or making it far more difficult for people with mental health conditions to qualify. 
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      · 12 hours ago
      @Cuckoo21 Well any change is unlikely to be to our benefit
    • Thank you for your comment. Comments are moderated before being published.
      · 13 hours ago
      @Cuckoo21 It's a already a nightmare to fill out, even for those of us who know how much detail we need to go into each time. Even when nothing has changed many of us find our PIP is cut with a new assessment. It's a very depressing and mental and emotional challenge before any of these new changes. My last assessment got my PIP cut because I was too mentally ill to fill it out properly. 
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      · 17 hours ago
      @Cuckoo21 This is what I'm petrified about to. But I don't think anyone knows what's going on :(
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    · 18 hours ago
    There are those saying that we won’t be touched till 2027 earliest but that’s not strictly true

    The reality is that the disabled community is back in limbo

    Our futures are hanging in the balance of the timms review - which may not need primary legislation to become law

    Timms these past few months has been dishonestly and totally void of empathy and shows no sign of listening or collaborating with the disabled community in this review

    Kendall herself suggested timms would be writing this review over summer recess and presenting his findings in the autumn - it’s possible he could present in September and primary or secondary legislation presented a few weeks later in October.

    Remember that Kendall said that this current bill had to achieve royal assent by nov 2025 in order for the 4pt rule to be implemented ‘on time’ in nov 2026 - the reality is that the gov still has time to rush through another (money) bill before nov 

    Also the 4pt rule is only shelved but after timms review it may not be needed if timms decimated specific descriptors (those of us who were safe under the 4pt rule may not be under the timms review)

    Yesterday may of had it’s victories but you know what they say about wounded animals - reeves will still want her savings off us and I think the major knock on effect of yesterday is that timms review will ramp up in speed and most likely contain more cuts (in the form of excluding many current claimants from qualifying with the new pip criteria) - this temporary ‘reprieve’ may of come at huge cost

    I think some of us may have to take advantage of this temporary clean slate and trigger our pip reassessment the moment timms review drops/pip reform legislation gets published to make sure we at least have one more review under the old rules - the only protection we have to temporarily protect ourselves from this increasingly uncertain future.

    In many ways yesterday may have been the worst result possible - we will find out for certain in the coming months
  • Thank you for your comment. Comments are moderated before being published.
    · 19 hours ago
    Amended bill has just been published

    https://publications.parliament.uk/pa/bills/cbill/59-01/0267/amend/universal_rm_cwh_0702.pdf
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    · 19 hours ago
    As i have always said from the very beginning [and posted all over the internet] PIP, is NOT the issue.. PIP has been used as a "smokescreen" to deflect attention from other MUCH more important changes.
    As we all know [but the general public and MP's do NOT know] People that were or are in the ESA support group, in particular those that LIVE ALONE, [as they are affected more] have been, [or will be very soon] FORCED to apply for UC instead.

    The thing is, UC does NOT have disability premiums like "enhanced disability premium" or "severe disability premium" this means that the person loses £236.74 a month.

    The government were beaten in the high court, and therefore had to bring out something called "transitional protection". This meant that EXISTING claimants would continue to get the same amount of money. BUT, and this is a very important BUT. 1, this "transitional protection" is frozen, so as benefits go up year on year, these poor people will recieve nothing until the £236.74 is "eroded" to nothing.

    Worse, let's say their rent goes up; Their UC will NOT go up to cover this, the increase will be taken from their "transitional protection" so they will lose that amount straight away.
    Not only that, but 2; Say it is deemed that there is a "change in their circumstances" which can be merely changing address, you will lose the £236.74 IMMEDIATELY.

    "New" claimants, they will not receive the £236.74 in the first place. Other people in different circumstances will lose differing amounts, for example, if a person in the "support group" does NOT live alone, then they would not have had "severe disability premium" in the first place, so they will lose less. Others, will lose MUCH more [up to nearly £450 a month] This is what MP's need grilling on. As i said, PIP is just a "smokescreen" to hide all this behind.

    The government bang on endlessly about the "cost of living crisis" Seems that disabled people do not count then, thay can freeze and starve...
  • Thank you for your comment. Comments are moderated before being published.
    · 20 hours ago
    Can I just check as I’m still really confused. Is the bill from yesterday that got voted through at the second stage still going to scrap esa in 2028/2029? 
    Are they still keeping it at the same amount it is now for the time being?
    Sorry I’m just really confused. 
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      · 17 hours ago
      @john Thanks for clarifying 
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      · 18 hours ago
      @Anniesmum That was never in this bill. That measure is in the Pathways to Work green paper. The consultation for which ended on the 30th June. The Pathways to Work white paper is expected some time this year maybe in the Autumn, and then there will be legislation put forward. With contributions based/new style ESA being abolished in 2028/29.  
  • Thank you for your comment. Comments are moderated before being published.
    · 20 hours ago
    The upsetting thing for me is that nobody seems to have really cared much in the media of in Governmrnt for LCWRA recipients. As we categorically cannot work we are just as vulnerable as PIP recipients and often cannot claim PIP as the criteria differ. I’m worried we are going to be hit even more aggressively now especially as they don’t seem to have promised to stop LCWRA being dependent on PIP- plus our payment is being cut despite not being able to work to make up the difference
    • Thank you for your comment. Comments are moderated before being published.
      · 14 hours ago
      @tintack Thank you, those are all really interesting points! 
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      · 14 hours ago
      @Ala I technically could but honestly the process was so upsetting last time that I’m scared to do it again and potentially lose LCWRA! I totally appreciate you make a good point though x 
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      · 16 hours ago
      @Pickle
      "I’m worried we are going to be hit even more aggressively now especially as they don’t seem to have promised to stop LCWRA being dependent on PIP"

      As there are 600,000 of us on UC health who don't get PIP daily living, that's 600,000 people who would lose UC health and be plunged into poverty. Given the almighty mess they've got into over a bill forecast to plunge 150,000 people into poverty, I think they would have a hell of a job getting something through that would push 600,000 people (at least) into poverty. 

      One of the key concessions they had to make to win yesterday's vote was that existing PIP claimants would not be reassessed for PIP under the harsher criteria which had been due to come into effect in November 2026 (that was before those criteria were then shelved completely at the last minute, but they had still been forced to make that concession about existing claimants before then). If they try to take UC health from 600,000 existing claimants that's a huge number of people who would be plunged into poverty. Another major campaign of pressure on Labour MPs would inevitably happen and another major rebellion would almost certainly follow. 

      At the very least, they would probably have to give a similar concession on existing UC health claimants as they did on existing PIP claimants, i.e. they would have to agree that making UC health dependent on PIP daily living would not apply to existing claimants. Without that concession I doubt they could get it through, especially as their MPs now know that they have the numbers to force concessions and defeat the government (the only way I can see that they could get it through without making such a concession would be if the Tories supported it, but winning a highly controversial vote by relying on Tory votes would probably be politically fatal). It seems to be generally acknowledged that when MPs vote against their own government once, it becomes easier to rebel on subsequent votes. That's even more true when the authority of the PM, chancellor, secretary of state and minister has taken such a battering.
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      · 18 hours ago
      @Pickle Seams you have to find a way to apply for PIP.   I know what you mean, but you need to find a way to translate your health issues ino PIP disctiptors.   You need a good advisor to help you.   I was like this.  Didn't consider myself worthy of PIP.   But this was just me pushing so hard and making myself more ill!   
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    · 20 hours ago
    When they vote next week mps must scrutinise the new bill minutely. To vote through any elements which go back on government concessions, or any new elements unfavourable to the disabled, would be a catastrophic betrayal of all the efforts of campaigners and rebels and the failure would be down to the entire party. It is up to all of them to make sure they have the bill in correct form, and up to us to encourage them to do so.
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      · 18 hours ago
      @robbie seams the Party comes FIRST!
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    · 20 hours ago
    I thought that before the election Labour had said it would also get rid of the private multi million pound us private insurance company Assessors and give it back to DWP instead which would be fairer. 
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      · 18 hours ago
      @tinytim Good point - obviously money talks.  I fear we'll stuck with capita et al for all eternity because reform/Tory govt would back them
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    · 20 hours ago
    Those claiming the concessions are a great victory. Should pause and think the battle over PIP may have been won for now but the battle for new claimants of UC health has not. They will suffer cuts if the bill passes it's third reading without the government agreeing to more concessions.

    UC health for new claimants not in the severe conditions criteria will be halved and frozen.

    And the UC definition of severe criteria group is narrowed for new claimants. Currently anyone who is going to meet the LCWRA criteria for life is eligible. In the bill as currently written that is being changed to only be if they meet schedule 7 descriptors continuously. So people who would qualify due to substantial risk will not qualify, and people with fluctuating conditions that debilitate them most of the time but not continuously will not qualify.

    This is a substantial cut in comparison to the current system. A single person age 25+ on UC standard allowance + UC health will in 2029/30 be £226.53 a month worse off due to the cut. More if inflation is higher than forecast. 
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    · 22 hours ago
    Liz Kendall, is attempting to save face. Timms has demonstrated aloof indifference to disability. Racheal Reeves and Darren Jones, made that pompous statement about pocket money.
    This whole saga has been a ramshackle lack of compassion leading to a now castrated green paper.
    The labour party has been, traditionally, the party of the people, it appear unclear who this changed labour party represents. Vote into office as "change" and to remove a toxic conservative party. Turns out to be, more of the same.

    I don't really like the idea of polarising disability and I do believe that most people agree the benefit system is in chaos and very much unfair.
    Disability has not created any of the social or economic issues here in 2025.
     
    "Where next Columbus"
     
    Many of us would very much, find self-worth in work, but honestly at a further impact to our health issues. The labour party has chosen to attack our dignity and wellbeing.

    “If you are confused about the someone’s intention, observe their behaviour”
     
    What an utterly shameful display of incompetence from the labour government
     


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      · 14 hours ago
      @john They have, and always will, put us through utter hell. Liars, hypocrites, not an ounce of empathy. Starmer and his henchmen, ashamed of my local mp for ignoring my simple email question "are you for or against welfare reform", surprise, he voted For! They are absolute horrors of human beings. Pocket money! Stroppy teenagers! I, along with many others hidden disabilities or visible, worked for as long as possible THROUGH our painful disabilities, paid our tax and national insurance and I worked 34+ years, earned my state pension whenever that is given to me, so pocket money, the little oik. He and his henchmen are not fit to lick our boots. WHY do people hate disabled people so much, you know what, we didn't pick this, disability picked us! I'm disgusted with them, they've sold out labour values, just get them and the Tories out, and please get a coalition of parties in (NOT Reform omg) who actually care about the vulnerable, NOT their bank balances and other material goods. Disability discrimination, you name it, they're guilty of that and much more. They have no shame. I'm weary of feeling terrified because I'm disabled ok hidden disabilities but still disabled. We get abuse and judged by society and the government helped that attitude grow. Thanks Starmer, look how far you've dipped, and your tarnished reputation isn't done with yet. Shame on you, shame on labour but thank you to the few who STILL voted against yesterday and weren't taken in by those lies. 
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      · 21 hours ago
      @Nige60
      A good read Nige60.  Enjoyed your write up of the whole scenario.  Also how much time have they wasted on this fiasco and how much has it cost everyone (politicians get paid for this)
      Hey, gizza a job yosser, I can do that!
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      · 21 hours ago
      @Nige60 Starmer in cabinet meetings was the original person who talked about disability benefits being pocket money, and disabled people like stroppy teenagers, if you remove their pocket money rather than continuing to indulge their idleness they will get a job and be happier.

      Presumably no one at the cabinet table objected to Starmer's characterisation of disabled people and benefits. And some went on to echo that opinion. 
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      · 21 hours ago
      @Nige60 Liz Kendall attempting to save face has been the most joyous moment of this whole saga. Obviously you can't tell how angry she is they lost the bill because she's always angry. 
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    · 22 hours ago
    good morning all .

    I emailed my local labour councillor , here where i live in the Cynon valley in the south Wales valley regarding the reforms that this labour government planned on doing regarding the welfare cuts .
    I have had no response from this mp , but this morning i did a check to see if my mp voted for the welfare cuts or against and i can tell you this mp voted for the cuts.
    The same mp also voted to cut the winter fuel payments for the elderly .


    Just thought i would let you all know what our mp's are not doing to help the most vulnerable in society and to say i am frustrated by this is an understatement .
    • Thank you for your comment. Comments are moderated before being published.
      · 14 hours ago
      @colcs I did the same, and my MP voted exactly as yours. I actually emailed saying a yes or no would do - seeing as he'd fobbed off every message. I didn't get that. I looked on the voting record and YES he'd voted in favour. Tory Labour. You are exactly right. Our MPs are not helping the most vulnerable in their constituencies anything but. They want to hold on to their seats, and poor vulnerable people aren't worthy of help in their eyes. Frustrated is the word I will use, but im definitely not thinking it. Just one minute face to face, only me allowed to tell him what it feels like, I will just dream - or rather keep on with the daily nightmares. 
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      · 20 hours ago
      @colcs He was all cosied up sat next to liz Kendel during the vote. You would think he would have more sense considering the large number of PIP recipients in his constituency, one of the largest in the country. He obviously does not care about them and more his job in government.
    • Thank you for your comment. Comments are moderated before being published.
      · 21 hours ago
      @colcs Well whilst it's not entirely consolation, your mp voted through very little. As for cuts to the winter fuel allowance, perhaps you should thank him for fuelling the huge effort which has limited the damage of the proposed cuts and called out the government's glaring lack of compassion or competence. Well done the right dishonourable member for Cynon Taf, good luck when you become unemployed!
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    · 23 hours ago
    this article is more optimistic than I am.
    "The Bill we voted on tonight is still unamended. The 4-point PIP rule is still there. Over 700,000 sick & disabled people will lose their UC health element — around £3,000 a year each." Imran Hussain MP https://x.com/Imran_HussainMP/status/1940126820692554199
    My local MP Paul Davies emailed me a week ago to say he would oppose the bill, a week later he voted for the bill.
    • Thank you for your comment. Comments are moderated before being published.
      · 20 hours ago
      @Anon Paul Davies is my MP as well. He has consistently supported the cuts as I've had a dialogue with him on this for several months. He values his career more than anything. As I've warned him with a small majority this issue may well cost him his seat at the next election. As DPAC have said we won't forgive or forget those labour MPs who voted for this bill. Many have now made certain they will lose their seats at the next election. 
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      · 21 hours ago
      @Anon Bills are not amended at the second reading they are amended at the reporting stage.
      1st reading. Commons informed of the bill, bill published.
      Parliamentary briefing published to give MPs context to the bill
      2nd reading. Vote on does the Commons agree with the general principles/objective of the bill.
      Committee stage. Looks at the bill line by line, makes suggestions on improving the bill.
      Reporting stage. Amendments to the bill tabled, debated and voted on by the Commons.
      3rd reading. Vote on does the Commons agree with the bill as amended.
      House of Lords if a money bill. No ability to amend the bill, and even if the Lords do not support the bill it goes for Royal Ascent one month after going to the Lords as it is purely within the Commons financial privilege. 
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      · 21 hours ago
      @Anon @Anon A week is a long time in politics. Seriously, though, perhaps he thought he'd achieved enough helping to get the concessions. You should encourage him to scrutinise the bill next week and vote on the right version.
    • Thank you for your comment. Comments are moderated before being published.
      · 21 hours ago
      @Anon @Anon This is why we need to be vigilant and proactive as I have posted below, and point out the dangers of not paying attention to what is being voted for next week.

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