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PIP Opinion
- honeyhoney
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5 days 20 hours ago #300360 by honeyhoney
PIP Opinion was created by honeyhoney
Hi
I need some opinions:
So: you are not able to go outside without another person,
because when you did it yourself you had a panic attack and had to overcome it with a breathing technique.
Since you are able to use a breathing technique, can this activity be considered an "acceptable standard"?
The DWP is arguing that since the breathing technique is effective, this is an acceptable standard.
For me, this is not an argument because the technique does not prevent a panic attack, it only helps to get over it. So the panic attack occurs first, so this is not an acceptable standard,
because a healthy person does not have such complaints when they go out alone at home.
A second person is also needed to prevent a panic attack, and then this activity (with the help of another person) can be performed to an acceptable standard.
Is my reasoning flawed?
This person has no physical ailments, this is a great trauma, in connection with a traumatic event at work (death of man).
Official diagnostics PTSD, anxiety states, depression.
I need some opinions:
So: you are not able to go outside without another person,
because when you did it yourself you had a panic attack and had to overcome it with a breathing technique.
Since you are able to use a breathing technique, can this activity be considered an "acceptable standard"?
The DWP is arguing that since the breathing technique is effective, this is an acceptable standard.
For me, this is not an argument because the technique does not prevent a panic attack, it only helps to get over it. So the panic attack occurs first, so this is not an acceptable standard,
because a healthy person does not have such complaints when they go out alone at home.
A second person is also needed to prevent a panic attack, and then this activity (with the help of another person) can be performed to an acceptable standard.
Is my reasoning flawed?
This person has no physical ailments, this is a great trauma, in connection with a traumatic event at work (death of man).
Official diagnostics PTSD, anxiety states, depression.
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- BIS
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4 days 20 hours ago #300412 by BIS
Nothing on this board constitutes legal advice - always consult a professional about specific problems
Replied by BIS on topic PIP Opinion
Hi Honeyhoney
Forgive me, but I am slightly puzzled by what you've written, and if I am, I think I know why the DWP is acting as they have done. I'm not saying they are right - simply - how I think they may have interpreted the events. Please correct me if I'm wrong.
You say the person cannot go out by themselves. But then you say they did go out by themselves and had a panic attack, which they managed using a breathing technique. Obviously, I don't know what was written on the form, or what was said at an assessment, but knowing how the assessors often behave, I can imagine precisely why they decided to say the person can manage to an acceptable standard.
Here are the questions that come to me, that need to be clear in your arguments and this means explaining what happens before they even step outside the door. They can't leave the house because of ...PTSD, anxiety and depression. What happens before they leave the house? Do they need to be persuaded to leave the house? Do they open the door and turn back? Do they suffer any symptoms such as shortness of breath, sweating, nausea.... How often do they try to leave the house and fail? Do they ever need support at this time?
Once they are outside the door - what happens? Do the symptoms of a panic attack start immediately they step outside and how does this manifest itself? Are they in danger of hurting themselves or anyone else during a panic attack? If someone else is with them - how can another person help them? Does the other person just say nothing until the attack is over or do they prevent them coming to harm?
The reason why I have mentioned all these questions is because it sounds as if the DWP is minimising what happens to the person in the lead-up and aftermath of a panic attack. Attacks vary from one person to another, but having been in a car recently with someone who had one - I was genuinely scared for both of us. You may have course have explained or this and they fixated on how the person tried to deal with the problem.
From what you've written here - saying that they recovered using a breathing technique - they are definitely dismissing it. If you didn't already you need to explain how difficult that is, the impact afterwards and certainly the person is unlikely to have recovered quickly, and nor could they repeat the journey.
I would be questioning whether the person is safe during the panic attack - I don't think they can do this action reliably because of the risk of a panic attack. Have a look at page 17 of the Guide to PIP claims and reviews and you will find your argument there.
No I don't think your reasoning is flawed, - but it's not me your trying to persuade. Make sure they really understand the PTSD, anxiety and depression and the impact of panic attacks.
BIS
Forgive me, but I am slightly puzzled by what you've written, and if I am, I think I know why the DWP is acting as they have done. I'm not saying they are right - simply - how I think they may have interpreted the events. Please correct me if I'm wrong.
You say the person cannot go out by themselves. But then you say they did go out by themselves and had a panic attack, which they managed using a breathing technique. Obviously, I don't know what was written on the form, or what was said at an assessment, but knowing how the assessors often behave, I can imagine precisely why they decided to say the person can manage to an acceptable standard.
Here are the questions that come to me, that need to be clear in your arguments and this means explaining what happens before they even step outside the door. They can't leave the house because of ...PTSD, anxiety and depression. What happens before they leave the house? Do they need to be persuaded to leave the house? Do they open the door and turn back? Do they suffer any symptoms such as shortness of breath, sweating, nausea.... How often do they try to leave the house and fail? Do they ever need support at this time?
Once they are outside the door - what happens? Do the symptoms of a panic attack start immediately they step outside and how does this manifest itself? Are they in danger of hurting themselves or anyone else during a panic attack? If someone else is with them - how can another person help them? Does the other person just say nothing until the attack is over or do they prevent them coming to harm?
The reason why I have mentioned all these questions is because it sounds as if the DWP is minimising what happens to the person in the lead-up and aftermath of a panic attack. Attacks vary from one person to another, but having been in a car recently with someone who had one - I was genuinely scared for both of us. You may have course have explained or this and they fixated on how the person tried to deal with the problem.
From what you've written here - saying that they recovered using a breathing technique - they are definitely dismissing it. If you didn't already you need to explain how difficult that is, the impact afterwards and certainly the person is unlikely to have recovered quickly, and nor could they repeat the journey.
I would be questioning whether the person is safe during the panic attack - I don't think they can do this action reliably because of the risk of a panic attack. Have a look at page 17 of the Guide to PIP claims and reviews and you will find your argument there.
No I don't think your reasoning is flawed, - but it's not me your trying to persuade. Make sure they really understand the PTSD, anxiety and depression and the impact of panic attacks.
BIS
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- honeyhoney
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4 days 4 hours ago #300445 by honeyhoney
Replied by honeyhoney on topic PIP Opinion
Hi Bis,
Thanks for your response, and I apologise for the confusion. You're right—my post was a bit chaotic.
Let me clarify. Given that this is a public forum and considering the nature of the work this person was doing, as well as the entire incident, which was reported in local media, I’d prefer not to go into specific details (which were included in the application).
I’ll just say that while performing their duties, this person witnessed a suicide and was literally seconds away from preventing it. Since then, they have been living with guilt, are unable to return to work, and their mental health has deteriorated significantly, impacting their daily life.
Unfortunately, in their PIP application, they received a score of "0" in every descriptor. Of course, I understand that PIP is not about diagnosis per se.
Using your "PIP Guide," I tried to help them complete the initial form. For example, in Activity 11:
„I struggle to follow the route of a familiar journey without another person, due to my mental health conditions, including PTSD, depression, anxiety, and social anxiety. The difficulties I experience impact my ability to perform this activity reliably because I cannot do so safely and repeatedly. Below are examples of situations where these challenges significantly impacted me:
My brother once asked me to drive him to his girlfriend’s house, which is a familiar route I had taken before many times. Initially, I thought I could manage the journey, but as soon as we started driving, I began to feel overwhelmed by my anxiety. I became increasingly distracted, second-guessing every turn and worrying about making a mistake. My thoughts raced, and I started to feel physically unwell, with my heart pounding and my hands shaking on the steering wheel.
About halfway through the journey, my symptoms escalated to the point that I felt unsafe continuing to drive. I pulled the car over and told my brother I couldn’t do it anymore. He helped me calm down, talked to me and after some time, we were able to continue the journey. Without him there, I would have been stranded and unable to complete the journey safely. This situation demonstrated how my mental health can quickly make driving unsafe, even on familiar routes without another person.
On another occasion, I attempted to walk to a park just a short distance from my home. Before I even reached the halfway point, I felt an overwhelming sense of dread and fear due to my anxiety. My PTSD caused me to become hypervigilant, constantly scanning my surroundings for threats. A loud noise, such as a car horn, startled me so severely that I froze on the pavement. My heart was pounding, and I felt unable to continue. I stood there for several minutes, feeling disoriented and unsure of how to proceed. I finally called my mother, who came after a few minutes and took me home. Since then, I never leave the house alone.”
Alone, the task became unsafe and overwhelming, and I could not complete the journey.”
I attempted to demonstrate that this person is unable to leave the house alone because when they tried, "X" happened... It was clearly stated that, since then, they NEVER leave the house alone for the reasons mentioned above.
In the examples, I aimed to show how another person can provide assistance and why their support is essential.
During the assessment, the HP asked:
• Do you leave the house, and how often?
• Yes, but only when someone is with me, 4-5 times a week.
• Why do you need someone with you?
• Because I feel fear around strangers and am afraid of having a panic attack.
• Is the breathing technique effective?
• Yes, it helps me get through a crisis.
Assessor / DM Scoring: "0"
„During assessment you did not display any verbal signs of being distressed or anxious…”
„Whilst you report you Talking therapy is currently not effective you confirm using breathing techniques that you find helpful”
…and the same “copy-paste” response in every descriptor.
We are currently at the stage of writing the Mandatory Reconsideration (MR) with the tribunal in mind.
Since my mental health isn’t in the best place, I may be overlooking something important, which is why I’m asking for your opinion.
Thanks
Thanks for your response, and I apologise for the confusion. You're right—my post was a bit chaotic.
Let me clarify. Given that this is a public forum and considering the nature of the work this person was doing, as well as the entire incident, which was reported in local media, I’d prefer not to go into specific details (which were included in the application).
I’ll just say that while performing their duties, this person witnessed a suicide and was literally seconds away from preventing it. Since then, they have been living with guilt, are unable to return to work, and their mental health has deteriorated significantly, impacting their daily life.
Unfortunately, in their PIP application, they received a score of "0" in every descriptor. Of course, I understand that PIP is not about diagnosis per se.
Using your "PIP Guide," I tried to help them complete the initial form. For example, in Activity 11:
„I struggle to follow the route of a familiar journey without another person, due to my mental health conditions, including PTSD, depression, anxiety, and social anxiety. The difficulties I experience impact my ability to perform this activity reliably because I cannot do so safely and repeatedly. Below are examples of situations where these challenges significantly impacted me:
My brother once asked me to drive him to his girlfriend’s house, which is a familiar route I had taken before many times. Initially, I thought I could manage the journey, but as soon as we started driving, I began to feel overwhelmed by my anxiety. I became increasingly distracted, second-guessing every turn and worrying about making a mistake. My thoughts raced, and I started to feel physically unwell, with my heart pounding and my hands shaking on the steering wheel.
About halfway through the journey, my symptoms escalated to the point that I felt unsafe continuing to drive. I pulled the car over and told my brother I couldn’t do it anymore. He helped me calm down, talked to me and after some time, we were able to continue the journey. Without him there, I would have been stranded and unable to complete the journey safely. This situation demonstrated how my mental health can quickly make driving unsafe, even on familiar routes without another person.
On another occasion, I attempted to walk to a park just a short distance from my home. Before I even reached the halfway point, I felt an overwhelming sense of dread and fear due to my anxiety. My PTSD caused me to become hypervigilant, constantly scanning my surroundings for threats. A loud noise, such as a car horn, startled me so severely that I froze on the pavement. My heart was pounding, and I felt unable to continue. I stood there for several minutes, feeling disoriented and unsure of how to proceed. I finally called my mother, who came after a few minutes and took me home. Since then, I never leave the house alone.”
Alone, the task became unsafe and overwhelming, and I could not complete the journey.”
I attempted to demonstrate that this person is unable to leave the house alone because when they tried, "X" happened... It was clearly stated that, since then, they NEVER leave the house alone for the reasons mentioned above.
In the examples, I aimed to show how another person can provide assistance and why their support is essential.
During the assessment, the HP asked:
• Do you leave the house, and how often?
• Yes, but only when someone is with me, 4-5 times a week.
• Why do you need someone with you?
• Because I feel fear around strangers and am afraid of having a panic attack.
• Is the breathing technique effective?
• Yes, it helps me get through a crisis.
Assessor / DM Scoring: "0"
„During assessment you did not display any verbal signs of being distressed or anxious…”
„Whilst you report you Talking therapy is currently not effective you confirm using breathing techniques that you find helpful”
…and the same “copy-paste” response in every descriptor.
We are currently at the stage of writing the Mandatory Reconsideration (MR) with the tribunal in mind.
Since my mental health isn’t in the best place, I may be overlooking something important, which is why I’m asking for your opinion.
Thanks
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- LL26
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2 days 14 hours ago #300499 by LL26
Nothing on this board constitutes legal advice - always consult a professional about specific problems
Replied by LL26 on topic PIP Opinion
Hi honeyhoney,
Have a look at this case
JT v SSWP (PIP) [2020] UKUT 186 (AAC)
–Judge Rowland considered the concept of ‘reliably’ under Reg 4(2A), in relation to Descriptor 9, and the concept of avoidance.
Although the case related to descriptor 9 about engaging with people, or in effect avoidance of engaging. There is a close relationship of descriptor 9 and mobility descriptor 1.
I think there is a strong argument that you can say that if you seldom go out unless absolutely necessary,in order to avoid the kind of severe anxiety and panic that you have described in your posts, then if is likely that you can use the argument in the case.
Judge Rowland also suggested that any 'anxiety etc sufficient that it made go avoid engaging was likely to be an overwhelming psychological distress.
Additionally, you are right about acceptable standard- even if you do get from A to B it is questionable whether arriving in such an anxious and emotional state could ever be described as 'acceptable'. This term isn't defined but I like to think of it as being to a reasonable level, or maybe if you consider how other people who could be looking on (eg if your PIP activities were some sort of fly on the wall documentary) would the onlookers think, dear me, that poor woman, she needs some help, she really can't do that well etc etc...
Think also of this...
If you are having panic attacks, having to stop to calm down etc, certainly driving in such a state is dangerous, so yes safety is a factor too. However if having to stop takes a while, consider whether it would take twice as long as a non disabled person.
Let us know if you need more help.
LL26
Have a look at this case
JT v SSWP (PIP) [2020] UKUT 186 (AAC)
–Judge Rowland considered the concept of ‘reliably’ under Reg 4(2A), in relation to Descriptor 9, and the concept of avoidance.
Although the case related to descriptor 9 about engaging with people, or in effect avoidance of engaging. There is a close relationship of descriptor 9 and mobility descriptor 1.
I think there is a strong argument that you can say that if you seldom go out unless absolutely necessary,in order to avoid the kind of severe anxiety and panic that you have described in your posts, then if is likely that you can use the argument in the case.
Judge Rowland also suggested that any 'anxiety etc sufficient that it made go avoid engaging was likely to be an overwhelming psychological distress.
Additionally, you are right about acceptable standard- even if you do get from A to B it is questionable whether arriving in such an anxious and emotional state could ever be described as 'acceptable'. This term isn't defined but I like to think of it as being to a reasonable level, or maybe if you consider how other people who could be looking on (eg if your PIP activities were some sort of fly on the wall documentary) would the onlookers think, dear me, that poor woman, she needs some help, she really can't do that well etc etc...
Think also of this...
If you are having panic attacks, having to stop to calm down etc, certainly driving in such a state is dangerous, so yes safety is a factor too. However if having to stop takes a while, consider whether it would take twice as long as a non disabled person.
Let us know if you need more help.
LL26
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2 days 2 hours ago #300503 by honeyhoney
Replied by honeyhoney on topic PIP Opinion
Hi LL26
Thanks for your advice.
Do you think it would be worth sending them articles from the internet describing this "event" to make them aware of why he struggles with PTSD, depression and anxiety?
Thanks for your advice.
Do you think it would be worth sending them articles from the internet describing this "event" to make them aware of why he struggles with PTSD, depression and anxiety?
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- BIS
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1 day 20 hours ago #300525 by BIS
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Replied by BIS on topic PIP Opinion
Hi Honeyhoney
I wasn't saying your post was chaotic - it wasn't - but I wanted to clarify whether he goes out alone - which you've now said he never does.
Yes, I would send them an article for the 'event' - from a 'reputable' source.
So it sounds like you have given them a lot of detail about the impact - and it sounds as if you had an assessor who has no knowledge of PTSD or other medical conditions. I hope you do manage to overturn the decision through the MR process, but be aware that only 27% of people win at this stage.
As I said before, I haven't seen what is on the form, and I don't know what the claimant said - but at the moment, he is being done over by the 'breathing techniques' and the ignorance of the assessor who is not looking at the whole picture. I would do as LL26 suggests and emphasise the length of time that it takes him to recover. I would be saying that his world has shrunk considerably because of the appalling tragedy he witnessed. Suddenly, finding out he can't go out alone is an enormous change in his life. I would try and strengthen your language because it sounds polite and slightly restrained - when clearly his world has been 'decimated'. (and no, I'm not being critical of what you've written - just trying to overcome any thoughts of the assessor)
Did you include a letter from a family member - on any of the incidents? If you didn't, I would do so.
If you didn't, I would also include what happens now, even with support. I imagine his brain is on a playback loop of that terrible day every time he leaves the house. That must be terrifying and debilitating.
Don't forget to put in your reply that the assessor has never met the claimant and it is unfair to make a judgement about what they were feeling or displaying and they were mistaken. Put in how he was, in fact, feeling as he was having to re-live what had happened as they were going through the form!
BIS
I wasn't saying your post was chaotic - it wasn't - but I wanted to clarify whether he goes out alone - which you've now said he never does.
Yes, I would send them an article for the 'event' - from a 'reputable' source.
So it sounds like you have given them a lot of detail about the impact - and it sounds as if you had an assessor who has no knowledge of PTSD or other medical conditions. I hope you do manage to overturn the decision through the MR process, but be aware that only 27% of people win at this stage.
As I said before, I haven't seen what is on the form, and I don't know what the claimant said - but at the moment, he is being done over by the 'breathing techniques' and the ignorance of the assessor who is not looking at the whole picture. I would do as LL26 suggests and emphasise the length of time that it takes him to recover. I would be saying that his world has shrunk considerably because of the appalling tragedy he witnessed. Suddenly, finding out he can't go out alone is an enormous change in his life. I would try and strengthen your language because it sounds polite and slightly restrained - when clearly his world has been 'decimated'. (and no, I'm not being critical of what you've written - just trying to overcome any thoughts of the assessor)
Did you include a letter from a family member - on any of the incidents? If you didn't, I would do so.
If you didn't, I would also include what happens now, even with support. I imagine his brain is on a playback loop of that terrible day every time he leaves the house. That must be terrifying and debilitating.
Don't forget to put in your reply that the assessor has never met the claimant and it is unfair to make a judgement about what they were feeling or displaying and they were mistaken. Put in how he was, in fact, feeling as he was having to re-live what had happened as they were going through the form!
BIS
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