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PIP review form has no guidance on ‘ Safely, Repeatedly, Acceptable Standard…
- VIA
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3 months 1 week ago #293947 by VIA
Hello fellow member and moderators,
I have received my pip review form pip.1043.
What I find odd is the only giveninformation to ‘help’ fill in that form, the first few pages actually, gives no guidance at all regarding being able to do the daily living and mobility activities Reliably which is:
- Safely
- To a Necessary and Acceptable Standard
- Repeatedly
- and In a Reasonable time period no more than twice as long as a person without a physical or mental health condition would take to carry out the activity.
The guideline does not mention points either.
- I do not remember if the original pip review form gave those guidelines which could be why for the pip review they do not bother to repeat the guidelines of reliability.
- or like I suspect is it to give us as little guideline as possible to prevent us from being successful at pip?
If I may double check if I understand this correctly also:
“In a Reasonable time period no more than twice as long as a person without a physical or mental health condition would take to carry out the activity.”
Would that mean if I were to do an activity but it would take me longer than twice as long as someone without a physical/mental condition it would not count?
Any help is greatly appreciated.
Thank you.
Have a lovely week-end.
Best wishes
I have received my pip review form pip.1043.
What I find odd is the only giveninformation to ‘help’ fill in that form, the first few pages actually, gives no guidance at all regarding being able to do the daily living and mobility activities Reliably which is:
- Safely
- To a Necessary and Acceptable Standard
- Repeatedly
- and In a Reasonable time period no more than twice as long as a person without a physical or mental health condition would take to carry out the activity.
The guideline does not mention points either.
- I do not remember if the original pip review form gave those guidelines which could be why for the pip review they do not bother to repeat the guidelines of reliability.
- or like I suspect is it to give us as little guideline as possible to prevent us from being successful at pip?
If I may double check if I understand this correctly also:
“In a Reasonable time period no more than twice as long as a person without a physical or mental health condition would take to carry out the activity.”
Would that mean if I were to do an activity but it would take me longer than twice as long as someone without a physical/mental condition it would not count?
Any help is greatly appreciated.
Thank you.
Have a lovely week-end.
Best wishes
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- LL26
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3 months 1 week ago #293948 by LL26
Nothing on this board constitutes legal advice - always consult a professional about specific problems
Replied by LL26 on topic PIP review form has no guidance on ‘ Safely, Repeatedly, Acceptable Standard…
Hi VIA,
Here is an extract from a recent post I wrote.
Regulation 4(2A) PIP Regs 2013 provides that all PIP descriptor activities have to be completed
• safely
• repeatedly
• to an acceptable standard
• within a reasonable time
This is the so called 'reliability' criteria - all 4 must apply- if you fail to meet even just one of the four this indicates you can't do that descriptor and may need help, an aid or actually can not do the task
Safely - is there a substantial risk that harm might occur? So, if you have epilepsy, and a fit could occur causing danger then this indicates eg supervision for bathing- it doesn't matter whether the likelihood of the fit is infrequent; clearly a fit in the bath could have very serious consequences. Safety issues could comprise dropping knives, or hot pans/food whilst cooking or eating, but could also include leaving the cooker on, and running the risk of fire etc. Falls indicate safety issues, not hearing traffic coming could indicate the need for supervision if out walking.
Acceptable standard is not defined but kind of means the level of completion expected by others. Leaving large messes whilst cooking, or constantly spilling food off the plate or food probably isn't acceptable. Only being able to hear half the words being said is unlikely to be acceptable. Putting on clothes upside down or back to front with buttons not aligned with the button holes is unlikely to be acceptable.
In addition, significant amounts of pain will also be 'unacceptable".
Reasonable time- this is defined as no more than twice that of non disabled person. If you take too long again this shows a need for an aid or physical help.
Some of these criteria overlap- if you are too slow then this probably isn't acceptable. Leaving slip hazards in kitchen could be both unsafe and unacceptable.
Finally consider repetition, tasks need to be done as many times a day as reasonable. The repetition rate will vary across the descriptors.You might wish to cook 3 times a day.
others. Leaving large messes whilst cooking, or constantly spilling food off the plate or food probably isn't acceptable. Only being able to hear half the words being said is unlikely to be acceptable. Putting on clothes upside down or back to front with buttons not aligned with the button holes is unlikely to be acceptable.
In addition, significant amounts of pain will also be 'unacceptable".
Reasonable time- this is defined as no more than twice that of non disabled person. If you take too long again this shows a need for an aid or physical help.
Some of these criteria overlap- if you are too slow then this probably isn't acceptable.
Finally consider repetition, tasks need to be done as many times a day as reasonable. The repetition rate will vary across the descriptors.You might wish to cook 3 times a day.
Toilet needs with incontinence might need to be managed 10 or more times per day. With journeys and walking this could be 6 or 7 times per day. Bearing in mind the journey could be by car or public transport, but inevitably will involve at least a few short steps to the car and into the nearby building. It would not be unreasonable for someone to take kids to school, go to supermarket, need to go and get new shoes, walk back to car via card shop. Go home.Write card and go to post box. Pick up the kids. Visit mother in evening. None of these journeys or small amounts of walking would be unreasonable, and perhaps one of two more might be required. Communication could however be required 24/7.
You need to be able to do all the required repeats acceptably safely and within the appropriate time for each descriptor. If you fail to repeat except for a trivial time eg 5 mins of the day you can't communicate you can achieve points in accordance with the level of disability under the relevant descriptor.
A descriptor will be met if you can't achieve any/all of the 4 criteria for the majority of days. This means that if you have a better day every so often, that won't preclude points/award of PIP.
Fatigue could also comprise non acceptable standard. It is easy to consider each descriptor task in isolation. Think about the descriptors holistically.
So...if I asked you, do you cook? - if you told me yes, but only when I don't go walking, and it's not the day I have a bath. This would suggest you can't repeat all the activities across the day. Likewise if fatigue, pain breathlessness increase in blood pressure, etc makes activities too slow, this might indicate a problem with repetition as well as being unacceptable standard, and perhaps not safe.
DWP know full well what this all actually means. It is explained perfectly in the various Guidance Manuals. The unfortunate thing us that very few of the Decision Makers have read this, or maybe they ignore it!
I hope this helps.
LL26
Here is an extract from a recent post I wrote.
Regulation 4(2A) PIP Regs 2013 provides that all PIP descriptor activities have to be completed
• safely
• repeatedly
• to an acceptable standard
• within a reasonable time
This is the so called 'reliability' criteria - all 4 must apply- if you fail to meet even just one of the four this indicates you can't do that descriptor and may need help, an aid or actually can not do the task
Safely - is there a substantial risk that harm might occur? So, if you have epilepsy, and a fit could occur causing danger then this indicates eg supervision for bathing- it doesn't matter whether the likelihood of the fit is infrequent; clearly a fit in the bath could have very serious consequences. Safety issues could comprise dropping knives, or hot pans/food whilst cooking or eating, but could also include leaving the cooker on, and running the risk of fire etc. Falls indicate safety issues, not hearing traffic coming could indicate the need for supervision if out walking.
Acceptable standard is not defined but kind of means the level of completion expected by others. Leaving large messes whilst cooking, or constantly spilling food off the plate or food probably isn't acceptable. Only being able to hear half the words being said is unlikely to be acceptable. Putting on clothes upside down or back to front with buttons not aligned with the button holes is unlikely to be acceptable.
In addition, significant amounts of pain will also be 'unacceptable".
Reasonable time- this is defined as no more than twice that of non disabled person. If you take too long again this shows a need for an aid or physical help.
Some of these criteria overlap- if you are too slow then this probably isn't acceptable. Leaving slip hazards in kitchen could be both unsafe and unacceptable.
Finally consider repetition, tasks need to be done as many times a day as reasonable. The repetition rate will vary across the descriptors.You might wish to cook 3 times a day.
others. Leaving large messes whilst cooking, or constantly spilling food off the plate or food probably isn't acceptable. Only being able to hear half the words being said is unlikely to be acceptable. Putting on clothes upside down or back to front with buttons not aligned with the button holes is unlikely to be acceptable.
In addition, significant amounts of pain will also be 'unacceptable".
Reasonable time- this is defined as no more than twice that of non disabled person. If you take too long again this shows a need for an aid or physical help.
Some of these criteria overlap- if you are too slow then this probably isn't acceptable.
Finally consider repetition, tasks need to be done as many times a day as reasonable. The repetition rate will vary across the descriptors.You might wish to cook 3 times a day.
Toilet needs with incontinence might need to be managed 10 or more times per day. With journeys and walking this could be 6 or 7 times per day. Bearing in mind the journey could be by car or public transport, but inevitably will involve at least a few short steps to the car and into the nearby building. It would not be unreasonable for someone to take kids to school, go to supermarket, need to go and get new shoes, walk back to car via card shop. Go home.Write card and go to post box. Pick up the kids. Visit mother in evening. None of these journeys or small amounts of walking would be unreasonable, and perhaps one of two more might be required. Communication could however be required 24/7.
You need to be able to do all the required repeats acceptably safely and within the appropriate time for each descriptor. If you fail to repeat except for a trivial time eg 5 mins of the day you can't communicate you can achieve points in accordance with the level of disability under the relevant descriptor.
A descriptor will be met if you can't achieve any/all of the 4 criteria for the majority of days. This means that if you have a better day every so often, that won't preclude points/award of PIP.
Fatigue could also comprise non acceptable standard. It is easy to consider each descriptor task in isolation. Think about the descriptors holistically.
So...if I asked you, do you cook? - if you told me yes, but only when I don't go walking, and it's not the day I have a bath. This would suggest you can't repeat all the activities across the day. Likewise if fatigue, pain breathlessness increase in blood pressure, etc makes activities too slow, this might indicate a problem with repetition as well as being unacceptable standard, and perhaps not safe.
DWP know full well what this all actually means. It is explained perfectly in the various Guidance Manuals. The unfortunate thing us that very few of the Decision Makers have read this, or maybe they ignore it!
I hope this helps.
LL26
Nothing on this board constitutes legal advice - always consult a professional about specific problems
The following user(s) said Thank You: mariashep, denby, VIA, anees292
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- VIA
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3 months 1 week ago #293952 by VIA
Replied by VIA on topic PIP review form has no guidance on ‘ Safely, Repeatedly, Acceptable Standard…
Thank you so much LL26,
For going into great details.
It will be extremely helpful for my PIP.
Best wishes
VIA
For going into great details.
It will be extremely helpful for my PIP.
Best wishes
VIA
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- LL26
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3 months 1 week ago #293958 by LL26
Nothing on this board constitutes legal advice - always consult a professional about specific problems
Replied by LL26 on topic PIP review form has no guidance on ‘ Safely, Repeatedly, Acceptable Standard…
Hi VIA,
I'm glad you have found this of use. Let us know how you get on.
LL26
I'm glad you have found this of use. Let us know how you get on.
LL26
Nothing on this board constitutes legal advice - always consult a professional about specific problems
The following user(s) said Thank You: VIA
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